You Said it: Should Illegal Immigrants be Granted In-State Tuition?

Tim May 17, 2011 at 03:58 pm

Exactly, William.
I'm not sure how dense any liberal has to be to understand this core and irrefutable argument. If you are here illegally, you should be kicked out. Period. There is no legal counterargument to this. Except in O'Malley's world where he and other liberals are making a mockery out of this state on the issue - to benefit themselves, of course. Nice "leadership". I have no issue with legal immigrants, or those here legitimately via Visa. They are free to do as they please, because they've gone through the steps to be here legally. If they all feel voting for a party I oppose that's fine by me. They can have in-state tuition, etc. Whatever they are legally allowed to have, based on their LEGAL existence in our fine country, no one has any right to take away.

Buzz Beeler May 17, 2011 at 04:51 pm

Proud, when responding to a rebuttal, I carefully examine the content of the information contained within the facts provided by the writer.
Proud in your response you wrote the following,"In the first place the trouble in the Middle East is mostly between different sects of the same culture."l Your referral to "the same culture," does not address the real conflict that is, and has been ongoing since biblical times. If you watched the news yesterday you would have seen the violence between the Israelis protecting their border and the Palestinians attempting to breach it. Israeli soldiers killed a number of Palestinians in the ensuing conflict. The conflict in the Middle East is between the Palestinians and the Jews and they are not the same "sect." The documented problems in France, England and Germany as revealed by each nations political leadership stems from the immigration of Muslims into Europe. We are beginning to see through the increasing home grown acts of attempted terrorism, that citizenship is not the panacea that you speak of. A good case study would be to look at the Goths and their rebellion against Rome. The migration of Europeans was the basis for the founding of the nation in terms of its early ethnicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

Proud to be liberal May 17, 2011 at 11:05 pm

Buzz: For all your knowledge of history, I am surprised that you are not aware of the conflict between Sunnis and Shi’as: that conflict that has been going on since 632 AD. BTW, they are both Muslims.
As far as the conflict between Jews and Muslims, that has been going on since 1949 or so. The news that you refer to from yesterday is, I think, not about the Palestinians trying to “breach” Israeli boarders, but rather trying to recapture their own land back from the occupation by Israel. It is a red herring and irrelevant to compare the invasion, not rebellion, of Rome by Goths and the Middle East today. By saying, “We are beginning to see through the increasing home grown acts of attempted terrorism…” You are attempting to tie our national heritage of multiculturalism with terrorism. That is beneath you. It is a tea bagger trick to frighten people into supporting one’s agenda through an old tried and true strategy: “The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses.” As I stated before, we do NOT want a “pure ethnic” society! We want a multicultural one where all contribute equally for the benefit of our great country. We do not want to follow the path of Europe, where pure citizens rule and all others serve.

Proud to be liberal May 17, 2011 at 11:08 pm

I will repeat: “The only answer is to reform the immigration policies in this country and make it easier to come here legally.”

amdactivist May 17, 2011 at 11:29 pm

what about enforcing the immigration laws already on the books? They all need to come to this country legally with visa's green cards etc or get the hell out!! They here for many years scaming our tax $$ .. In other words they thieving criminals..

Annie Wheeler May 17, 2011 at 11:52 pm

Maryland has become a sanctuary state. There seems to be no intention of enforcing the laws concerning the employment of illegals. There is a good program called E-Verify that employers can use. It doesn't catch everyone but it does cut down the number getting jobs. If there is a problem there is still a period where appeals can be made if necessary.
We need to change the representation in Annapolis so we can pass a law making it mandatory that all employers use E-Verify. We also need to require proof of citizenship or legal status before voting as well as for any and all assistance programs including unemployment. Since workers do not pay into unemployment (the business pays) there is no problem with denying it to those not working legally to begin with. Maryland students and Maryland workers should come first. And if our representatives don't believe that, then it's time to replace them.

Tim May 18, 2011 at 04:44 am

You can repeat it Proud Liberal, but on this fact. you are flat out wrong.
Just because X number of people want in the country, doesn't make them all entitled to come in. You don't take on more responsibilities (so to speak) if you can't manage your own. Right now, this country can't. This series of Dream Acts now in 10 states is a liberal (and feeble) attempt at breaking laws in hopes that those people provide something for their state down the line. God forbid they worry about making things better for the actual CITIZENS and LEGAL immigrants first. Nah. I understand, appreciate, and even agree with several "liberal" social platforms. This one, is simply deplorable, and I'm perplexed how states get it to pass - and stick against legal suits.

Buzz Beeler May 18, 2011 at 05:14 am

Proud, if you go back and read some of my earlier comments, I referred to the conflict you speak of as a prime example that multiculturalism does not work. My point then as it is now, that even among the same ethnic groups there are differences as defined in the 164 applied meanings to the term culture.
The conflict in the Middle East has Biblical roots. Your supposition is based on your concept of what you think are the boundaries as opposed to what are the borders pertaining to the recent violence. If we follow your logic of what should be instead of what is, then the U.S. would have to be redefined with portions relegated to Mexico. I do not impose any ideology or engage in propaganda as related to current incidents. I am not a member of the Tea Party nor am I attempting to influence the facts by interjecting a certain brand of politics. Police officers are trained to deal in facts. The facts I relayed to you were not in the form of propaganda, but rather in arrest records and related charges. You made an inference that the trouble in Europe was a result of not providing a path to citizenship. I simply pointed out the flaw in that theory. Your last statement of "all contribute equally," is based on an oxymoron as your followup of, "We do not want to follow the path of Europe ..." when in fact Europe is based on the concept of socialism. Why do you think the students are rioting in the streets of England?

Proud to be liberal May 18, 2011 at 12:58 pm

Buzz: As you so didactically stated “…when responding to a rebuttal, I carefully examine the content of the information contained within the facts provided by the writer.” What I said was that the strategy of tying multiculturalism to terrorism is a propaganda strategy. You contention that there is a connection between multiculturalism and terrorism most certainly is a ploy to frighten people to your argument. That is known as “ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude. Another way of putting it: Speaker deals with passions of audience rather than with salient issues.” You did not provide valid “arrest records and related charges” to back up your argument.

Proud to be liberal May 18, 2011 at 12:58 pm

Buzz cont: Moreover, how can you say there is a flaw in my theory without proof? Just because you do not choose to believe that denying citizenship to someone born in a country would lead to disenchantment, or to violence, does not make your idea true. Studies have shown that it is true (as well as plain common sense). “The framers’ intent was to create an objective basis for establishing citizenship—not a subjective standard left to the whim of a majority. The United States has, for that reason, never struggled like other nations to integrate those born here. Creating a permanent subgroup of outcasts born in the United States who can never call it their country will weaken our nation’s social cohesion. Countries such as Germany that historically denied citizenship to children of immigrants born within their borders have struggled to integrate such populations, which consistently face limited social mobility. In fact, Germany has realized the shortcomings of their system and changed its birthright citizenship laws to be more like those of the United States and other European countries.” http://www.empowernewsmag.com/listings.php?article=1475
See also: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/08/birthright_lunacy.html

Proud to be liberal May 18, 2011 at 01:28 pm

Buzz: As far as the boarders of Palestine are concerned, they are well known and established by treaty (as are ours with Mexico). They are not “based on your concept of what you think are the boundaries.” There is very little logic of trying to tie our border with Mexico with that of Palestine and Israel. That is a false analogy. You have a habit of making these false leaps in your arguments. That does not work with me.
I stated that “We want a multicultural one where all contribute equally for the benefit of our great country”. Are you saying we do not want a society where all contribute equally? We are getting back to your concept of pure ethnic society, i.e., “multiculturalism does not work”. You will have to show how that is not a racist’s concept. Please note that I am saying you are racist so don’t get your panties in a bunch, but show me how they “instead of becoming productive members of society they wind up draining the limited resources we have” is a fact.

Buzz Beeler May 18, 2011 at 05:49 pm

Proud this is your quote, "but rather trying to recapture their own land back from the occupation by Israel."
Your second quote, "As far as the boarders of Palestine are concerned, they are well known and established by treaty" If those borders you refer to are well known and established, then why would the Palestinians be involved in attempting to reclaim what is not theirs. "The United States has, for that reason, never struggled like other nations to integrate those born here." As per your quote are you not familiar with the Civil War. To equate that with "never struggled" is a bit of a stretch. “We want a multicultural one where all contribute equally for the benefit of our great country”. Does your quote include the unemployed, sick, disabled, disturbed, lazy, incarcerated etc. Regarding you reference to "pure ethnic society," copy and paste that quote from my comments. I already explained multiculturalism does not work as related to the leaders of England, France and Germany. In the following link you will notice the reference to your favorite political agenda, the Democrats. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1321277/Angela-Merkel-Multiculturalism-Germany-utterly-failed.html Another interesting fact concerning the presidents health care. How may exemptions have been granted nationwide and more recently for the former Speaker of the House, Nancy something?

Buzz Beeler May 18, 2011 at 06:05 pm

Proud, your quote, ” You did not provide valid “arrest records and related charges” to back up your argument."
My response, FORT HOOD!!! Does that as you say, back up my argument? If you are using a link to augment your stance, I would find one that does not have the title of "Birthright Lunacy." The title distracts from any subsequent validity.

Proud to be liberal May 18, 2011 at 07:25 pm

Buzz: “My response, FORT HOOD!!! Does that as you say, back up my argument?” No it does not! Are you saying that one deranged individual represents everyone of Middle East heritage? Are you claiming that that proves multiculturalism cannot work? Also, please explain how the Civil War proves your argument.
What don’t you understand about: “We want a multicultural one where all contribute equally for the benefit of our great country”. By definition if everyone contributes equally then the ideal excludes those do not. You have not provided a single cogent fact that supports you utterly unsupportable theses that multiculturalism does not work. It does not work in a country that refuses CITIZENSHIP to people born there, such as Germany. You said multiculturalism does not work: pray tell us what that means if not a pure ethnic society? Don’t you get that the opposite of multiculturalism is a SINGLE (pure) culture? That concept is certainly discredited by most people in this world.

Proud to be liberal May 18, 2011 at 07:26 pm

Buzz: “If those borders you refer to are well known and established, then why would the Palestinians be involved in attempting to reclaim what is not theirs.” Buzz, I thought you were such a maven for history? Have you never heard of the Six-Day War (June 1967)? It was during that war that Israel occupied large tracks of Palestine. Have you never heard of the settlements being built by Israel in Palestine? Those settlements are in PALESTINE. I think they would like to have the land back. But, I suppose, you believe “might is right.”
You’re starting to sound desperate in your attempts to dodge my points with your constant denying the antecedent strategies. Show me how they “instead of becoming productive members of society they wind up draining the limited resources we have” is a fact. BTW, that sounds like a sweeping generalization to me and with racist’s undertones. But I am certain you are not a racist even if your reasoning sounds as if it is straight from Fox and the tea party.

Buzz Beeler May 18, 2011 at 09:14 pm

Proud, to my knowledge there is no such thing as a "pure ethnic society." You keep interjecting words into your comments that you attribute to me.
You should get together with George Seros. He does not believe in borders either. If your concept of MC is viable, then how is it that the rest of the world does not concur. That is why there are maps and those squiggly lines that define borders that define countries. Those 50,000 plus U.S. troops stationed in Korea since the 50's are not singing "Come Together ..." If you looked at history and the great war, then you would know that one deranged man started it. As to the impact of one man's ideology, I can name two people who were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people. As to FOX, I will take a winner over a loser any day. Make that multiple losers, since FOX out-draws all other competition combined. As to the Six Day War, I am very familiar with it. If as you claim to know something about history, how do you think those squiggly lines were formed? I don't think crayons were used to define territory. If might is not right, then we would be either speaking German, Russian, or Japanese.

Proud to be liberal May 18, 2011 at 11:01 pm

Buzz: “As to FOX, I will take a winner over a loser any day. Make that multiple losers, since FOX out-draws all other competition combined.” Otherwise known as: "ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM: A fallacy that asserts that the more people who support or believe a proposition then the more likely that that proposition is correct; it equates mass support with correctness."
Where did I interject words that I attributed to you? You can, however, explain how a society that is NOT multicultural is, by definition, NOT a pure ethnic society. While you’re at it, show me where I advocated open borders. You are using all the sophistic tricks but refuse to defend your position or statements.

Buzz Beeler May 19, 2011 at 01:46 am

Proud you are attempting to write history without thinking through your argument.
One at a time, so lets take a look. "ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM:", I would prefer to call it the Nielsen Ratings. Now lets say for arguments sake, that my view is correct and yours is incorrect, does that reverse your assumptions. In the real world mass support wins out and I think the term that applies to that is the election. Link the definition you are referring to in the context of "pure ethnic society," as applied to MC, there is NO PURE ETHNIC SOCIETY ANYWHERE ON THIS PLANET. I never used those words, you assumed that is what I meant. That in the debate world is a no, no! The humane existence is complex and cannot be defined in simple terms. Your "all for one and one for all concept," is not based in reality. I would classify you as a political ideologue. Rather than debate on the convoluted use of adjatives, focus on what your point is. The more issues you interject into the equation of the humane existence, such as religion, sex, politics, sports, hair length, body styles, and anything else under the sun, the harder it becomes to assimilate into the utopia you speak of. I do not use tricks but merely refer to what you have written. As to your quote of, "show me where I advocated open borders.", in order to have a MC society why would you need borders?

Proud to be liberal May 19, 2011 at 03:17 am

Buzz: Your attempt to deflect the discussion away from your weak arguments shows me that you have no clue as to how you can justify your statements. Just remember one thing: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal….” That includes those who are not like you and who are not from here. We all were immigrants once.

Buzz Beeler May 19, 2011 at 08:09 am

Proud, I think you need a lesson in the reality of life my friend. On the lighter side, if we are all equal how come I can't hit the golf ball as long as Tiger Woods?
What say you as to the "we are all equal?" How come I can't play the guitar as well as Keith Richards? Go to Youtube and look up harlequin babies and tell me along without all the soap that we are equal. Be forewarned that what you will see may haunt you forever. Open your eyes, you are living in the real world. Just to show you how misguided your rose colored view is, in that equal mix does that include the Nazis, the Talabond, The Aryian Brotherhood, the KKK, al Queda, just to name a few of those MC groups that you think "all men are created equal." The minute you exclude anyone of those groups, your premise of "all equal," takes a flying leap. Yes we were all something at one time, but be thankful you are not one of the LESS FORTUNATE, like the babies you will see on Youtube. Even the comic book supper heroes all have different powers. That alone proves my point that even among supper heroes, they are not all equal. Have you ever been to Rosewood, Spring Grove or any other State hell-hole. Your self righteous Democrats already have given over 1,00 exemptions to the Obama Care program. Being a cop for 39 years brings the real world into focus. Like our brave warriors in combat, watching it from the sidelines is one thing and being in the middle of it is another.

Proud to be liberal May 19, 2011 at 11:54 am

Buzz: I think you need a lesson in humanity. The line that I quoted is one of the most famous in the history of law. It is, of course known to all students of history, from our own Declaration of Independence. You’re blowing it off as just another example of “self righteous Democrats” fluff. Let me tell you something about the “real world” my friend and what it means to be an American. In America a poor, African immigrant maid can receive justice against one of the richest, powerful men in the world. They are both “equal” under the law. There is a reason Justice is depicted with a blindfold on. You depict yourself as a realist, but what comes across is a self centered elitist.

Proud to be liberal May 19, 2011 at 11:58 am

Buzz cont: “That alone proves my point that even among supper (sic.) heroes, they are not all equal.” My view is not “rose colored” but rather compassionate. One of the reasons we are the greatest country is that very compassion we show others. We do not blow them off as just “unfortunate” but protect them under cover of law. Did you ever read the great passage: “I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.”
Our constitution is designed not to protect the powerful, but to protect the weak. We are the only country that has a Bill of Rights embedded in our constitution, the very one you were sworn to protect. I’m sorry for you that after 39 years in an honorable career all you can see are the differences in people and not the similarities. You must be a very lonely, bitter old man.

Buzz Beeler May 19, 2011 at 03:43 pm

Let me get this straight, a quote from a famous line in history makes everything OK? I spent 39 years in dealing with the criminal justice system you so fondly speak of. You speak of one incident as a metaphor to justify your utopia.
Equal under the law! Your rose colored friends aka Eric Holder has yet to try the majority of the terrorist involved in the 9/11 attack on this country. He's to busy suing AZ, while the president is excluding over 1,000 of the elite to opt out of Obama Care. Do the initials GE ring a bell? Who was it that said in his movie, "Do the Right Think." I wonder what Spike would say. I guess the special treatment of the 9/11 terrorist falls under your reference to "compassionate." Why don't you tell the few remaining survivors of the Bataan Death March how our government allowed for many of the participants to get away with war crimes. Why don't you tell the story of Joachim Peiper and how our justice system dealt with him? Why don't you explain the recent sentence of a killer who murdered a child and received a 10 month sentence. I guess to you OJ is still a hero. Our criminal justice is based more on procedure than the truth. Look at the days of the civil rights movement in a time when obtaining a conviction against a white defendant was almost impossible for killing a black man. Does that fall under your quote "is a reason Justice is depicted with a blindfold on", or you just had your rose colored glasses on?

Proud to be liberal May 19, 2011 at 04:26 pm

Buzz: Please! For your information, and you should have known this if you knew your job, that the courts are based on evidence and the law, not procedure or your perception of the “truth”. OK you tell me how it should be done. Should we have taken OJ out back and shot him? You sound like a vigilante which is the opposite of our law system.
Remember that John Adams defended British soldiers and they were acquitted? That is because we believe in the rule of law. Our justice system believes that "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," (William Blackstone, Commentaries). The reason Justice is depicted with a blindfold is that the courts do not see a person’s race, status or other personal things. They only see evidence and the law. You, of all people, should know this.

Buzz Beeler May 19, 2011 at 05:03 pm

Proud, how many criminal cases have you investigated? How many times have you testified?
John Adams is not God. He is not the end all of reason. Here is where you fail as a debtor and I have tried to influence you to stick with the facts and not some grandeur ideology. SHOW ME MY QUOTE OF, "Should we have taken OJ out back and shot him?" You have no clue about the courts. Recently a judge was convicted of accepting bribes in connection with a child abuse case and was found guilty. FOX carried that story. How do you answer that one??? I would charge 50 people with the exact same violation, date and time, location and when testifying in two adjacent court rooms 25 were found guilty and 25 were found innocent. Explain that one. Law is subjective and is not a science. That is where your theories fall apart. You are assuming that the courts act without error. Explain PBJ and how drunk drivers can be found guilty dozens of times and never spend one day paying for their crimes. You did not answer one of my questions concerning the 9/11 terrorist. Where is your system of justice in that scenario. As a debater you fail because you are not adapt at being flexible and wrongly assume the system is infallible and without human error. You make a broad brush statement that assumes that because John Adams said it , it is so. Didn't Bill Clinton say something while point a finger right into our faces, that turned out to be a LIE!!!

Robert Armstrong May 19, 2011 at 05:08 pm

"Supper Heroes"?? Is that a new show on the Food Channel?

Buzz Beeler May 19, 2011 at 05:41 pm

I will stop making typos when you learn how to correctly use punctuation like placing a period after your sentences. If you prefer I can go back and highlight you previous comments?
Secondly if you are quoting my mistake you should quote it exactly as I wrote it, e.g., "supper heroes," not "Supper Heroes"?? The question marks are OK the capitalization is not. You also forgot the comma. It is OK to be critical as long as you know how to do it correctly. When you accomplish that, then we can all share in a bit of your wit. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/577/01/

Robert Armstrong May 19, 2011 at 06:47 pm

Okay Archie Bunker. I get it. Anybody that doesn't agree with you is a horrible debater.
BTW If you didn't realize it. All the 9/11 terrorists are dead. it was a suicide mission Only the conspirators are left

Proud to be liberal May 19, 2011 at 07:17 pm

Buzz: "SHOW ME MY QUOTE OF, 'Should we have taken OJ out back and shot him?'"
How many times do I have to tell you: when a sentence ends in a question mark, IT IS A QUESTION. Didn’t you read the proceeding sentence? “OK you tell me how it should be done.” So would you like to enlighten us on the Buzz system of fixing our judicial system? How would you dispense truth, justice and the American way?

Buzz Beeler May 19, 2011 at 09:23 pm

You are correct as the actor Carroll O'Connor who portrayed Archie Bunker is deceased.
Conspiracy is one of the main elements in the commission of a crime. "All the 9/11 terrorists are dead." Someone better inform those detained at Guantanamo. For your convenience I have linked a list of names. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees Robert, to illustrate I'm not a vindictive person I will send you a private message.