Thanks once again for reminding us of why unions and public employees don't mix. It is untenable to imagine a negotiation not tempered and tied to profits or any other cap on available monies or success. We've kicked back bonus money, insurance money...and it's not good enough. Sure seems to me $71K for a 9 month job and plump bennies is plenty, but apparently they still want more. Unions need to be removed from negotiation whenever tax monies pay for the result of any negotiation. Sure is easy to promise other people's money; even when other people are losing money...it doesn't matter; we'll just raise taxes.

Since the Public School Labor Relations Board is appointed by O'Malley, I would question their impartiality. O'Malley owes a lot to the labor unions in this state, and since Harford County has never supported him why would his board ever take a side against a labor union in support of the local government and citizens of Harford County.

In these tough economic times, I grow weary of government employees who always want more.

I agree that teachers deserve cost of living raises each year as does everyone else but to assume ALL private sector employees receive them every year is a fantasy. In this economy, I don't know many people that have received a raise at all. I have only ever been a private sector employee and haven't seen a raise in years due to the tough economic confines we are in. Neither has my husband.

Get a government job. Simple enough? But you'll need a skill other than basic literacy and the willingness to do what you are told.

My wife has been teaching for 7 years. She now nets less than she did when she started as a result of benefit cuts and taxes. First year teachers with no experience are paid the damn near close to the same amount as her. In addition, the state requires her to obtain a masters degree which, despite "benefits", still costs us in excess of 3-4k ea h year over the past 4 years. That does not include books and materials.

Teachers do more in 10 months than the average 9-5 employee could dream about doing in 14. Salaries are held, positions are cut, class sizes are being maxed all in the name to cut overhead. How many kids were in your class as a child? How many of them do you think had "special needs?" Most now exceed 25 children.

Ever had more than one 8 year old try to throw a chair at you or across the room because of a "disabity"? Bear in mind this is a Bel Air school - not Edgewood.

I challenge anyone to step into an overcrowded classroom of students for one week and then claim that teachers have the summer off and a "cushy" job.

I tell my wife to stop bringing papers home to grade. Stop spending our personal money on her classroom. Stop supporting after school activities. She won't because she loves her profession - but maybe if all teachers did it they could raise awareness as to how much they actually do. Teachers do not run a day care. They are the most undervalued professionals in our society.

John W. I must say that your comment certainly does not apply to 99% of teachers. Have you factored in elementary school at all? As an elementary special education teacher, I work 8:30-3:50 with a 30 minute lunch and a 45 minute planning period. Currently, I make 41K. Doesnt quite seem so outrageous when you think of it that way. What data do you have to support your statement? I think that I can speak for most teachers when I say that my job does not end at 3:50 when the school day ends. I spent countless hours grading papers, preparing materials for arrive at school at 7 and leave at 4. Take out my lunch, that is 8 and a half hours each day. After tending to my family, I spend at least another two hours doing work for my students.

Rob, your wife is the aspiration of youngins in school like myself trying to become a teacher. I can tell she loves what she does, and every teacher who fits that description does as well. I hope she has good luck and a few good years to come.

John W., you might be getting a bit long in the tooth for a career change (or rejoining the workforce, as the case may be), but you ought to get your teaching certificate and give it a go. Mathematics, all of the sciences and special education are still shortage areas.

It sounds like you are arguing for a more professionalized teaching workforce. Do you think this will be cost neutral?

Anybody can take a potshot at schools and teachers because having gone to school, having sent children to schools and having watched "Welcome Back Cotter" on TV is an instant qualification. By the way, wasn't the guy who sat next to Vinny named John? Hmmm...

There are good teachers and there are crappy teachers; unfortunately crappy teachers get the same raises and benefits as the good ones and that's exactly the problem. It's a profession infiltrated by unions decades ago and with which that stranglehold has continued to distort and manipulate away from the purpose of teaching. Teachers ought to be compensated based upon their quality as employees otherwise we're feeding mediocrity because there's no incentive for excellence. Let's not all pretend a sacrifice for the children otherwise you wouldn't hear the continual bellyaching about pay and benefits. You never read about the IRS special deduction for materials non recompense by the district especially for teachers, no all you ever hear is everybody's buying stuff for school out of thier own pockets. Just wonder how many sets of paper towels and toilet paper are ending up as tax deductions?

You are out of your depth here, Karl. You do not have a background of knowledge about the history of teachers' unions nor do you understand the basics of current policy that purports to do exactly what you suggest.

You could sign up at the substitute teacher office of Harford County Schools and take a peek at how it really is.

Oh, you could clear some things up for policy makers by explaining what makes a teacher good and how to measure whatever that is.

1ke: I normally am loathe to repond to nonsense, however I'm hardly in a minority to believe that a) public employees and unions are a problem, b) employees should receive raises based upon return on performance, c) conformity in wage and benefits regardless of quality kills personal incentive and d) there are special tax deductions for teachers who spend their own money on materials. The only thing that out of depth is your own continual personal attacks on those with whom you disagree.

Teachers can only claim up to a $250 deduction for supplies they buy themselves. That is a deduction, not a credit. For most teachers, that means they get 15% of that back ($37.50)

I'm not sure where John W gets his info, either. $71K is the top of the pay scale for Harford County teachers, which means those with at least 19 years experience now that pay steps have been frozen for 4 years. Elementary school teachers are only given one 45 minute planning period per day.

I'm sick of comments like teachers overvalue themselves. This is the same mentality I hear from many who seem to think teachers are little more than daycare providers.

It is an entirely different world today than in the 60s, 70s or 80s for teachers. There is no way class sizes can be the sizes John W speaks of with the inclusion of special needs students, many with behavioral problems.

Myself and my wife, both teachers outlayed about 3,000 in our own pocket money for classroom supplies. I only got to deducte $500 of that on taxes. I do that because someone has to step up and supply the kids with colored pencils, binders, composition books, pens, pencils as well as disposable lab supplies that the school will not pay for to be used in my science class. This is the first year in a while some parents have actually stepped up and sent a box of tissues in for general classroom use like I ask for. Usually I buy them too!

CB if in fact that were true it's a reflection of a complete lack of organization on both your and your wife. First of all; lists of needed supplies to include erasers, pens, colored pens, paper, etc. are given to parents before school starts...if for some reason you neglect to include some needed item that's what the $250 is for. Can't imagine how you get to to $1500 for one classroom on top of what parents provide and the school district. There's a short film entitled Caine's Arcade - check it out on You Tube. It might give you a lesson in what a kid can accomplish with a couple of cardboard boxes and tape.

Can someone please tell me what a basic salary is for teachers? Lets say less than 10 years on the job and no Masters Degree.
Thanks

Thank You CB.

I would just like to put in my .02. I think teachers are underpaid and under appreciated. If you are just going to pay them a very average salary the job will MAINLY attract very average employees. I believe if the job paid more, it would become more competive and result in, well, just better teachers. I feel the job teachers have is hard enough, and with the average wage, the people filling the position ON AVERAGE and NOT the people that should be teaching our children.
Not that more money for teachers will promise a better education for our children but I think it sure would help.

And to present a more honest picture after 19 years regardless of the quality of your work and in a position that given the lengthy leave would be considered part time in private employment the scale jumps to $71,000, plus generous benefits that include 8 paid sick days that you can bank for years and years and years. By the way most teachers retire with thousands due them from banking these days. The cool thing is the payment scale isn't the rate the year these days were forgone but the rate based upon your last day out. That's just for starters. Good teachers might deserve that, but not all teachers are good teachers. Unions and public employees don't mix...it only serves to guarantee a disservice to the taxpayers.

Hey there Karl. I don't know much if anything about unions so I can't comment about the union at all. I do agree that unions PROBABLY help keep bad employees employed but that is for another discussion. I feel that 71K after 19 years of service is just a good wage. maybe a bit beeter then average but not great by anymeans. I don't know anything about teachers health benis but 8 sick days a years is on average. It is a plus they can roll them over from year to year. I don't know how to get a better education for children but I feel if we all as a whole, gave teachers the respect they deserve it would be a good place to start. Right now ALOT of teachers are not good teacher IMO. But if the wages were better I really think it would become a more sought after profession and garner better applicants, thus better teacher and hopefully better education.

I also fel this way for police officers as well.......Another reason I feel ALOT of cops are so bad at their job, the wages are terrible for such an important job.

Some teachers are worth it; many aren't - we come to an agreement there. Where we disagree is the idea that 71K isn't a great wage for basically a part time job. The maximum number of days they're required to teach is 190. The days are scheduled @ 37.5 as well, not the 40 nearly everyone in the private sector works. Of the 90 they're also allowed: 3 paid personal days, 13 scheduled holidays, accrued annual leave, accrued sick leave kicked back at retirement. Per the language in section 9.2: The total amount of sick leave accumulated is unlimited. With all that time off not sure how you'd ever need sick days. That 190 days turns into much less when you add it all up. All this whining about being ripped off is a bunch of who shot John.

I couldn't agree with you more AG. I have no ideas on how to go about it but i think we all know what must be done.
I also feel that the whole idea of learning is just something to do at school attitude with todays parents has to stop. Not sure if I can get my point across on here but I hope people understand what I mean.
Also, I find it kinda strange that when a teacher calls home to talk about a childs bad behavior or just about anything negative, the parent ALOT of the times don't believe the teacher. When did this start? If a teacher EVER called my parents they were 100% behind the teacher. Now it seems the parents are 100% behind a child, WHY? IS it we all know that our children can only tell the complete truth and don't ever fib?
Teachers have it tough now and we as parents aren't helping them.

AG, please talk more about school vouchers and charter school. Are charters schools similar to the magnet programs?

CB...you can't argue that teachers get lots of time off; lots more than most private sector workers and as such you need to prorate the pay vs. hours work if you're trying to make a fair comparison. Against 190 days, taking average vaca, etc., private sector workers are at closer to 240...that's a pretty big descrepancy and amounts to something akin to taking every friday off. That's a huge difference. At that rate year round work would bring in closer to 85-90K. I wouldn't mind paying it if we paid that to the excellent, but we pay that to anybody who manages to sit and breath for 19 years.

Seems that most of us are in agrrement that we would pay alot of money to good quailified teachers. OK, so I guess the next issue is how do we get rid of the poor teachers. How to you say what is a bad teacher, I don't think you could go on test scores alone. Again, I can see the problem but I have no idea how o fix it. Maybe that is what everyone runs into, How to stop the runaway train?

I am pretty sure 80% of the problem with the education system as a whole, not what we are talking about here, is the PARENTS!!!! Saying my child is not doing well is because the teachers are bad. My child doesn't misbehave in class, the teacher just has it out for them.
Thats the easy way out. Maybe if the parent would take some responsibility and help teach their children things would improve. Who knows, I sure know that I DON"T know how to fix it. But I Do know that it sure is broke.

Karl Schuub: This is a most appropriate, most insightful, most literate, most profound. You, again, demonstrate your value to this online community.