It's odd that R. Craig said that HOAs don't plan for future repairs. It seems that the city of HDG has not done so well in that respect either. The city roads are poorly maintained. The water and sewer infrastructure is failing to the point that a huge raise in rate in being considered. I appreciated Mr. Shank's offer of considering a tax overlay for Bulle Rock. We pay our share of taxes and deserve to receive city benefits for the money we pay into the city tax base. I am tired of being an ATM for downtown residents, and the HDG employee's health and benefit packages. Employees, come do something for us with a smile on your face. We are part of HDG as well. The city's original offer of "take down your gates" or we won't even consider offering city services was a bullying.. my way or no way.. uncompromising, token effort by the present Mayor that made no points with me. Bulle Rock residents do not deserve to be treated like a bastard child. Rape us and take our tax dollars and spend it on who knows what. I have met Mr. Shank, he is a soft spoken, knowledgeable individual. He understands and appreciates Bulle Rock's dilemma. He wants to work with us. I was unaware until I met him that he is recently legally blind due to diabeties which explains his curious, and sometimes cautious behavior. For him to read, words need to be magnified considerably. I am so impressed with how well he copes with his disability, his knowledge of, and service to the city.

I also was not impressed with how the Mayor answered questions about how the planned shopping center on Bulle Rock Parkway got dumped by the city. In my opinion the city responded to the cries of woe from a few downtown business owners whinning about how giving Bulle Rock residents a grocery store, coffee shop, deli, pharmacy, gas station easily accessible to them on the parkway would keep them from coming to town. If the town offered the quality of retail, grocery and shopping services we prefer to go to, we would come downtown more often. Ever heard the phrase "build it, they will come?" Enactment of proper zoning codes applicable to all and not subject to 'interpretation' based on the 'whims' of the city administration is badly needed. I understand the current ambiguous zoning code has been a complaint of residents for a long time and doesn't get addressed because whoever is in power delays and delays because they do not want to give up control, based on personal whims and interpretation. That is so wrong and speaks poorly of the current administration.

I would like to see more retail along Rt 40 from Aberdeen to the Susquehanna Bridge and not business offices as preferred by Wayne. I really miss the former hardware store in town and feel the community could benefit from a hybrid hardware store for those common 'fix it' necessities for home maintenance instead of driving to Home Depot in Aberdeen. I absolutely agree that the current administration has not managed to get a proper zoning plan and comprehensive plan completed during their term. Getting these efforts completed will help to move many aspects of concern to Bulle Rock residents to the next level. I think its time to move on to a different personality and leadership style. I hope you feel the same.

Seems odd that there is no mention of Mr. Shank being previously briefed on the questions, so he had documentation in front of him with figures ready. This entire "forum" sounds like a set up against Wayne, done by the Duncan-Shank camp!!!

After a number of phone calls and emails today—not to mention the comments on Patch—I spoke with Councilman Shank today about the format of last night's forum. None of the candidates were provided questions ahead of time, Shank included, he said.

"I did my homework," Shank said.

OPAC forum is tonight at City Hall.

Barbara Wagner will not be in attendance at tonight's OPAC Candidates Forum. Wagner is out of state with family after her mother passed away Thursday morning.

Common sense can lead to the anticipation of what the Bulle Rock residents might be interested in discussing. Very simple... what do they get in return for paying city taxes? It seems that Wayne's team borrowed money for water and sewer improvements, took Bulle Rock's tax money under the pretense of water and sewer needs, and spent it on ????. Now all of us have a huge debt to pay for water and sewer improvements and repairs. We are all going to have to pay higher water bills for a long time because of spending choices made by Wayne. That stinks in my book. Apparently, Wayne had no good answers for what Bulle Rock has been paying taxes for. Mitch offered some relief.

You are getting carried away with yourself! If it is a debatable issue discuss it on the facts-stop the smears, political rhetoric, and spin. You are doing a disservice to your candidate. He doesn't deserve this kind of support.

Maslin pays $1.82 a day to live in HdG? - that means her real estate taxes and water/sewer fees are $665 a year. She must be a renter, not a homeowner. I liked her straight-talk shtick initially, but it wore thin by the end of the evening and she ended up sounding more obnoxious than anything.

Craig used scare tactics in claiming that HOAs don't put money aside for future improvements, especially when he does not have the first clue of the HOA's finances. He seemed like a level headed guy, but came across as a status-quo sort uncomfortable with making changes.

Correri's door is always open...but I did not hear a single idea from the man.

Lawder is definitely not a politician - which is a good thing.

Wagner started out weak reading her opening statement, but came on strong as the forum progressed. She seemed to have her act together.

Dougherty played to the crowd about his NJ roots, but lost it at the end in discussing the commercial development at 155. He seemed very mad and defensive. Also, his plan for Route 40 sounds like no plan at all.

Shank came out swinging too soon in his opening statement, looking kind of bitter. But won over the crowd with his tax cutting stance and ideas. Of all the candidates, at least he had some facts and figures.

This was a great forum and I really appreciated the professional manner in which it was conducted. The questions were very good and the moderator kept things moving nicely.

To Margie (whoever you are) & Shawn Hurst, 2 points: 1. Being knowledgeable & prepared by researching issues doesn't constitute being previously "briefed", & 2. The so-called Shank camp is supported by far too many names to list; the fixation on Sharon Duncan is quite unecessary. Also notice - most if not all supporters of Mitch Shank use their real names and are registered voters.

In response to Mark: We own the house that was bought over 100 years ago by the Maslin family - we do not rent. The $1.82 figure represents the additional real property tax I pay per day for the priviledge of living in our terrific City, as opposed to living outside the City in Harford County. It does not represent the total taxes for City and County. Further, like everyone else, I then pay a water/sewer bill. The point is that I think that additional $1.82 per day in taxes is well worth the quality of life in the City of Havre de Grace including the City parks, fire and police protection, ambulance services, tourism, economic development efforts, local businesses, museums, special events and so much more.

Rather than speculate on the Bulle Rock Tax issue, why not encourage a study to figure it out?
I know the hookup fees, permit fees, capital cost recovery (yes, this pays for the beefed up infrastructure, much of which would have had to be done in order to comply with the State's madates anyway) and school fees for each developed lot total over $30,000.00. This is all paid prior to the sale of the home, and is therefore paid in cash, up front. The case for not changing the Bulle Rock tax rate (lower it) or services (increase them) or some combination ignores reality. All taxpayers should be given equitable treatment.

Today I got out my tax bill. I have lived in Bulle Rock almost 5 years. My city taxes are about $5.55 per day. A big difference from long time homeowners in the area. And does not include my county and state taxes.

The Paddocks were able to make a deal with the city. I heard that the Paddocks will still have to pay a fee to the city for these services above and beyond what they pay in taxes. Other city residents do not pay an additional fee for trash and snow removal.

As far as Bulle Rock and the trash removal. When we first approached the city, they required a majoirty to vote to proceed with negotiations. The city also proposed a fee to Bulle Rock residents for these services above and beyond our taxes. A survey was sent out to residents with a pass due date for return. As a result many surveys were not returned and it was automatially considered a no vote....it was poorly handled. Although the trash collection is stilled discussed among residents, it has not been addressed by the HOA since that very poorly handled survey.

The state is the one that sets the assessed value, not the City - isn't that right? Bulle Rock residents pay the same rate as anyone in the City, except for those properties in the Critical area - they just have more expensive properties. If you don't agree with your assessed value then contact the state. Don't the Bulle Rock residents drive on other City roads, visit the City parks and maybe museums and shops? Don't they also depend on the same police force, fire departments, and other emergency services as the rest of the City? Why should Bulle Rock get a special tax break that no one else would get? When a person buys a house they should be fully aware of what they sign for and the responsibilities that come with it - including the taxes and fees you'd have to pay. If the City took over road maintenance and plowing then they would be public streets and the same as any other development - ungated. And here is another thing to consider - there has been alot of talk about the current number of employees and their salaries - if the City absorbed another few hundred acres of roads don't you think they would have to hire addional people and buy additional equipment? How will that be paid?

Actualy, because most Bulle Rock homes were sold at the height of the market, and some since, there has been just about zero impact on the homeowner's "cap" of tax increase. Those who have owned their homes since prior to the housing bubble do not get an invoice reflecting any increase more than 5% per year. It takes a long time to catch up to the true market value when your bill can't go up more than 5%, depending of course, on how long you've owned your home. Somehow, the school buses and the police have no problem serving Bulle Rock (though you almost never see a police car there -- and I do mean almost never)... There are a whole host of services that Bulle Rock citizens do not get. It really boils down to equal services for equal taxes. I would venture to say that NONE of the utilities in Bulle Rock have been replaced (by the City or any government), but certainly the downtown utilities are and will be receiving significant improvements, paid by tax dollars. Are we for or against equitable treatment? NONE of the candidates at at the Bulle Rock "meet the candidates" were patently against an adjustment...Mayor Dougherty said the gates would have to come down, but that was the MOST negative comment I recall.

Did any candidate provide a copy of their birth certificate ?

When Bulle Rock was planned the gated aspect rubbed lots of Havre de Grace residents the wrong way. We wondered who the new residents wanted to be protected from. And those gates set up a them and us mentality that has not gone away. The gates do not protect Bulle Rock from crime since there is no fence to go along with the gates. The gates only protect against other citizens, otherwise known as neighbors, driving on their streets. Shawnee Brook and Tidewater Estates can't erect gates and still receive city services. Bulle Rock residents bought their houses with the large HOA fees because of the gates. Why should the rest of Havre de Grace bail them out now?

Well Bulle Rock is not the only Community that maintains their own streets, so my question would be to the elected officals if you take over Bulle Rock are they going to take over the rest of the communitys which have non city street within the city limits.

BRAVO MICKI intersted to see how this question is answered????

Can we switch the track on that same ole song we keep hearing the same verse over and over again...With all the "CHANGE" being quoted in the election process are width requirements written in stone or can they be "LOOKED INTO" Just asking????WE pay taxes...WE pay for PRIVATE CONTRACTORS to remove our snow...lets not go there.......WE pay city taxes.....and WE pay HOA dues.....When there are conflicts that require attorney fees WE pay them as well..BUT...WE as indivudual tax paying citizens MUST produce CITY permits to do any structure change and THAT MONEY is payed to the city...hmm...Please allow me to make the WE clear..I should say OUR HOA dues.And as it stands right now WE here up at Chapel Heights Drive have 3 vacant homes in here for whatever reasons.......SO that is 3 homes that the HOA does not receive dues for I believe..BUT the bills still have to be payed.I could go on and on about the issues that surround us the homeowners of Chapel Heights Drive but what good does it do we have been there done that and the song continues to play...hmmm.....OH and WE pay the water/sewer bills required by the CITY...If anyone is not familiar with this little culdesac comne see for yourself it is small quiet and Oh it is NOT a thru road.

It would be grand if we could all just choose the city service we wanted to use and have our taxes based on that… I don’t have children in public school so I should be considered for a tax break; my neighbor doesn’t have a car so give her a tax break for not driving on the roadway, another neighbor lives alone and generates very little trash so let’s give her a break for that. “Fairness” for Bulle Rock; give me a break!!!

Margie,
To my knowledge, no candidate received a briefing on, nor a copy of the questions presented at the Bulle Rock Candidates night prior to that evening, as the questions were still in development Wednesday afternoon by a committee of four of which I was a member.

well if they get a tax break in Bulle Rock, then does that mean we can use their roads and community center, swimming pool etc?

Adjusted tax rates is not really a debatable issue. Residents of Bulle Rock do pay higher taxes based upon location and property values not services. The developer negotiated a deal with the city at the time in exchange for annexation. Those who bought their dream properties perhaps did not realize that along with their wonderful properties and amenities and nationally recognized golf course, there would be a downside as a result of the deals brokered by the developer. For Bulle Rock to get adjusted tax rates based upon limited services already handled by the HOA would require that every group in the city governed by HOA would also request adjusted rates. Most of HOA in the city also have to pay extra for these services. Unfortunately politicians pandering for votes sometimes neglect to do their homework when promising lower taxes and more services. And what about the roads and gates in Bulle Rock-again not built to specs saved the developer lots of money while safety and cost of future repairs for Bulle Rock owners under an HOA was not a consideration. Bulle Rock residents might want to direct concerns appropriately to rumored condos and elimination of the golf course that was a tease to buy in the first place. And I am very concerned about politicians pandering for votes with promises of perks they don't realize can't be done.

Maxwell, your last comment is so on the money. The Bulle Rock deal was in fact brokered by the developer. I'm pretty sure Wayne wasn't even in office at the time.

It is true that promises are being made to Bulle Rock residents to pander votes, after thinking about it, there really isn't anything the city can do to offer relief.

Am I right or am I missing something? This isn't even a legit campaign issue. It might be a legal matter between Bulle Rock residents and the developer if unkept promises were made. Regrettably, the problem is being framed in a way that makes Wayne look bad and Mitch sound good.

Wrong Constance... see my comment to Brenda above. The Bulle Rock deal was brokered by the Council and Mayor at the time. It involved a lot of political pandering.. give and take.. and the HDG administration was swayed by the potential $$$'s coming to the city. You might say... they were bought off. I'm sure everyone thought they were doing the right thing at the time. HDG benefited with a huge infux of money. The million dollar question is, was that influx of money spent wisely by the brokering administration; and then by the administrtation that followed? There are lots of opinions on that. What matters now is that it has become evident that the residents of Bulle Rock are suffering from the 'butt end' of that deal. A deal made by the HDG administration at the time. A deal we have some responsibility for. A deal which HDG (the town) suppossedly benefitted from. Have you ever heard the comment 'that you never get something for nothing' ? The deal makers are gone. There is a legitimate issue to address. No matter who is elected, this matter will not dissolve. Mitch has recognized that this is an issue which must be dealt with. Wayne seems to want to push it aside.

Whether you are running for office or just want to defend your political viewpoint, it's helpful to know how to win a political debate. Politics isn't all kissing babies, photo ops, and feel good Proclamations, it's also about using your debating skills to outshine your opponent and win over voters.

1
Prepare. The best way to win a political debate is to prepare for it. Practice in front of a mirror to see how you will appear to others. Make sure you are on top of all the issues and know your opponent's position and platform. Watch other political debates to get comfortable with the style and format of a formal debate.

2
Stay on point. All the great politicians have a message and stick with it. No matter where the debate wanders, always end your time with a restatement of your message.

3
Master the issues. The best political debaters appear knowledgeable on a wide variety of topical issues. Be sure and do your research so you can talk about any topic knowledgeably.

4
Acknowledge your opponent's position. A good technique for cutting an opponent at the knees is to disagree with his or her position, but agree that your opponent feels strongly about it. This makes you appear both reasonable and commanding.

Tips & Warnings
Remain calm. Staying even-tempered and relaxed even when things are getting heated makes you appear confident and trustworthy. Don't let yourself get rattled by a question or by your opponent.

Maxwell,

I have no idea where you got that notion, but special taxing districts are not only not illegal, but they are used quite often.

Just last year, the Harford County Council approved two special taxing districts for two subdivisions outside of Aberdeen. In both cases, the county financed the construction of roads and infrastructure in return for a dedicated tax on the residents to service the loan.

It is quite likely that we may wish to look at a similar arrangement for Bulle Rock in order to either provide them with some relief from the fact that they are paying the same rates as you are for trash removal, road maintenance and snow removal, and then having to turn around and pay twice to hire private contractors to do those services.

I don't know how a deal would be structured, but it is worth studying.

Instructions
things you'll need:
Know your surroundings
1
KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE
You must know ahead of time the demographic you will be speaking to. You cannot go with your guns blazing on abortion with an audience of Evangelicals. You need to know who you will be talking and that will help you to find how to present your points.

2
SPEAK TO YOUR AUDIENCE

Have a conversation with your audience. Debaters are orators, only that they have to pause for the other person to speak. Level with your audience and let them feel at home to listen to your point of view.

3
BE PASSIONATE ABOUT YOUR SUBJECT

You might be supporting a controversial topic before an opinionated audience. Draw them in with things we all share in common as human beings and use your passion to drive home your point.

4
BE GRACIOUS TO YOUR OPPONENT

Coming across as arrogant and ungracious can demolish your excellent performance in a minute. Respecting your opponent's views and person tells audience members that you have a sense of decency. This scores your brawny points.

5
BE READY TO USE THE MIDDLE GROUND

Use moderation in your debate. Audiences do not like an extremist. They prefer a realist who brings in his/her ideals to the table and is prepared to work for a common goal. Your debating skills should be versatile enough to work before any kind of audience.

Copy - Cut - Past from EHOW, look, its like MMMAAGGGIIICCCC

Shawn,

Why do you again comment on the issue of questions being received before hand? It has been established that this is absolutely NOT true. NO candidates were given any questions ahead of time at Bulle Rock. So please stop suggesting that this was the case. It serves no purpose to bash other candidates.

After the election, whether my/your choice of candidates win or lose, we all still need to work toward a better Havre de Grace.

I have empathy for Mr Shank-but why the need for crib notes and cheat sheets? I don't remember anyone else having them? Unfortunately the impression makes one suspicious.

Think about it....other candidates had notes...only their notes were normal reading size.... I sat in the second row and saw Mr. Shank's note cards which were actually letter size pages....Each page had one maybe two words on the page written large so that he could reference them. No different from any other candidate that came prepared. The key word is that this candidate came prepared to answer any question that might be asked. It is not luck, it is not suspicious, it is being prepared and anticipating possible questions and concerns from the citizens your are speaking to. The tax question about how much does Bulle Rock pay to the city in taxes is a question that had been asked on more than one occassion. It should have been a no brainer for anyone on the council to realize that taxes are a hot button for residents and that this question of what is paid to the city by Bulle Rock residents would be asked. I think it is as simple as Mr. Shank doing his homework. Whether he is or is not your pick for Mayor, I think he deserves credit for knowing the numbers.

Morgan, It is also possible that the Mayor's team or supporters could have submitted questions as in any forum that allows questions ahead of time. It works both ways.

Regardless, we all have a right to vote and I encourage everyone to exercise their right to vote on Tuesday. Because... if you don't vote you don't have a right to complain.

VOTE ON TUESDAY

Yes Kathy it is possible, although I haven't seen such tatics from those who support the Mayor.

Morgan,

You make the point that residents of Grace Harbor paid HOA fees for years and had to pay for snow removal and trash collection.

But you either conveniently forgot, or may never have known that those same residents came stomping into City council chambers demanding that the City pay for the restoration of Grace Harbor's storm water management ponds after they failed and the HOA hadn't sufficient reserves to finance the work.

Tom,
I live in Grace Harbour and have for the past 12 years. I pay an additional $140 a year in a water/sewer bill that I have to pay until 2020, to pay for the upgrades that were made to the water treatment plant to support the additional growth (or so it was explained to me at my closing). My friends in Bay View Estates don't pay this, but I haven't gone and demanded a tax reduction.
As far as the storm water management ponds, the way I understand it, the developer was responsible for completing those and the city didn't require any bond or escrow up front to cover the cost, and then lo and behold, when the developer sold all the houses, they up and declared bankrupcy and left without completing the job. The city should have required a bond or money in escrow to cover those costs. Didn't something like this just happen in Havre de Hills or Grace Manor? The developer tried to skip out on installing street lights, didn't they? It is up to the city to enforce the agreements made with developers, while it is up to the people purchasing homes in the city to understand what their fees/taxes are.

I also pay the $140 every July. The City changed the way the fee's were collected about 10 years ago. Since that time The developer pays the cost at the time the permit is issued. Wayne's stimulas plan will require a 20% downpayment at the time the permit is issued, and the rest when the house is completed.

Shawn,
A bit of correction.
Mitch ran a business called River City Ice Jam.
Ice Dreams was our business, two completly different businesses and locations.
Can't speak for any other business, but we paid our employees, taxes, permit fees, and other expenses.
Thanks!

I guess after 14 years of listening to who is going to save our city from some perceived or real threat. Who struck john, who pushed john, why john didn't get a permit or why john is doing what john does, why john has a $300 water bill...this election looks very similar to the one's in the past or any in recent history for that matter. Another desperate and quintessential battle of ego's, self-riotous indignation and more self centered whoey to get back at someone for something whether real or perceived.
OR...politics as usual in what now may be a country on the brink of death by criminal greed and hogwash.
Frankly....folks out there know dang well who's qualified and who aint....again whether real or perceived....the perception of reality is far more important and measurable than "real" reality. Most political games are nothing more than a manipulation in social behavior at best and a legally sanctioned game of three walnut shells and a pea at worst. The question will unfortunately boil down to who has the better rap, who is more articulate and who is going to put some bucks back into the pockets of us "great unwashed". The problem with this self prophesying revolving political door...is that the "Big Guy" ..a person or persons who pull the real strings will be waiting in the wings to usher the newly elected into the halls of personal legacy. It's not as apparent in the local counsel but it grows as long as the ego grows. That. will always trump good intentions.
Reply

I was pleased to 'stumble" onto this forum. I'm currently considering a purchase at Bulle Rock, relocating to Maryland from NJ to be closer to family. I have been trying to learn as much about local customs and policies as possible, especially MD taxes. To my surprise, though we constantly complain about high property taxes in NJ, when you add property and income taxes together, MD is considerably more expensive. Nevertheless, we are still considering the move. The issue of services to "gated" communities is one that NJ faced many years ago. Much to our surprise, our State legislature actually did the right thing and adopted the “Kelly” bill, which required all municipalities to reimburse private communities for trash collection, street lighting and snow plowing. Working in local government at that time as a city manager and engineer I remember the concern of many local officials about how this would bankrupt the communities. It didn't, and after much initial resistance it is now just a routine part of budgeting. Most of my research has dealt with analyzing the future costs of capital replacements at Bulle Rock, but was surprised to learn that under MD law, the improvements did not require a bond. That info would have given me a good estimate of the future replacement needs. I guess my single biggest question is, knowing what you know now, as a resident of Bulle Rock, with all of the available amenities and services, would you make the same choice today?