Let the fence stand...get on to more important issues!!!!

Stop playing favoritism. Don't punish people for beautifying their properties and the town. Keep the fence.

Let it stand.

HdeG this is the most RIDICULOUS thing I have EVER heard!!!!! This man is doing nothing but beautifying a VERY visible area of town. Get real here concentrate on the crime and drugs in town and let the guy keep the fence. One question I do have is "Where was the Inspectors through all this?" If they would have done routine checks while the fence was being built they would have seen this. Come on HdeG isn't that big they could have driven by in just doing their daily jobs. Neck even the council members could have seen this in just their daily life. Also why did Mr. Martin lie and WHY was the discussion on this moved till the new council took over since the old one seemed for it. Seems someone was being petty. Get real folks let the fence be and concentrate on the crime and drugs in town!!!!

The fence should be left standing & take the "ugly" signs down. If he is made to take it down, then the city should pay him for the upkeep. I very much agree with ALL of he above.

While the fence as finished may not be a problem, it does create problems for the council. Permits are required so that the City can review and approve expansions and development to make sure they are appropriate for the site. Mr. Fiocci knew this and submitted information for a permit, then decided he would expand and instead of going back for approval just put up another 24'. He did this on purpose knowing he needed approval first but hoping that once up, he would have an easier time getting it through.

Unfortunetly, as a result of his actions he does create a problem for the council. What now happens when someone else violates the terms of a permit and points to Fiocci as an example. May seem silly but you do need to be careful when establishing rules for the game and in enforcing them.

Funny there are other fences that were built with out permission and the Mayor refuses to do anything about them. I remember approving several fences after they were installed and a couple that were put up on the city right away closer then the council allowed. One of these is the fence the Mayor himself installed on the corner of Market and Bourbon. The city council approved two feet from the sidewalk and the fence is less than one foot. I'm not sure about the railings extending from his commercial property on Market Street. Two railings running perpendicular to the street, just like Mr. Fiocchi's fence.

While on the city council, the lease for the Opera House came up for renewal. I contacted a member of another group that preforms in the city and told them that if they were interested in sharing the space they should attend the city council meeting and ask. This is the reply I received.
"Ah, we were at McDonalds doing our annual meet and greet with our characters. I haven't read the entire notes on the Patch, but I will watch this with interest. To be honest, I was told to keep my mouth shut, that them being removed from the Opera House could affect my program at the Rec Com if they started looking for new space. Our board discussed it and they agreed that I should step out of the discussion. But here is my personal opinion: For decades they have had a free ride on the backs of the HDG taxpayer, they repeatedly have denied access to their books and they never allow anyone at their board meetings, which they never announce to begin with. It is especially aggravating to me that they charge an arm and a leg for kids to be involved, as well as a hefty price for tickets and yet borrow almost all their props/sets and costuming. Where does the money go? It's very interesting to me (and to those on my board) that no one has asked what they are doing with the money."

The citizens are afraid to speak out because they know they will be retaliated against.

Havre De Grace must be a virtual paradise if the only thing the city council has to deal with is a nice looking fence. The fellow has mowed city property for years and this is what he gets? Maybe he should send the city a lawn service bill..................

How long has the fence been there before the city decided to make comment? Presently the P&Z office is shuffling through their records, checking all permits and validating their proper completion. That's not so bad if the city staff is just validating proper completion of stuff permitted within the past year. It seems that the city staff is so 'overworked' that they have Myrissa pulling and checking permits as far back as 2006. They were back as far as 2006 when we had an encounter with city 'justice'. We didn't do anything wrong, just had to go through the harrassment of responding. Just curious Joe, when was your permit filed and fence completed? Is the city responding to, and doing their job on a current permit according to existing ordinances and requirements, or, are they digging through old records to to enact their own version of HDG backwoods justice? At what point in time does the city's failure to put a suspense on permit completion and inspection affect the job that was permitted? Perhaps the city council should consider fine tuning the local building/permitting ordinance to answer this question in order to remove the remote possibility that someone might misuse the permit inspection process in an improper manner to discourage citizens from speaking their mind about city business matters.

What a terrible injustice this is. There have been many fences, building additions and other right of way violations approved over the years and now there is an issue with Mr. Fiocchi's fence. Setting a precedent? do your homework Councilman Glenn. There have been many exceptions made and license agreements permitted after the fact. I'm sure over the years since the start of issuing license agreements Councilman Correri has voted to approve many that were in some kind of violation. About 2 years ago there was an issue on Otsego St. where the property owner inclosed the front porch of the house (that is on the right of way) and added a new entrance without proper permits. I argued that the property owner should have to lease that space since it created additional untaxed living space, however Councilman Craig insisted that it should be done by license agreement. Councilman Craig could have voted to brake the tie and approve Mr. Fiocchi's license agreement , but didn't.

All the request's for license agreements go before the Council Planning Committee for review, this committee of 3 council members then make a recommendation to the full council when it comes up for action. In this case the Planning Committee had reviewed the request at least 2 council meetings prior to the city election, but it never appeared on the agenda for action. This was old business that should have been dealt with by the sitting council before the change over. I urge the council to do the right thing and bring this matter back up for reconsideration and approve this license agreement!!

Political posturing has no place in this town.
We should be spending more time focusing on how to reduce our taxes in a major way and reducing the cost of our utilities (i.e. Water). Fences should be the least of our worries...

Barbara,
I'm well aware of the good things the Tidewater Players have done in the past. The point of my post is the Old Opera House is a city building and should be available for all the citizens to use, not monopolized by one group. The city has evolved since the Tidewater Players started and other groups have formed that could share this space. Theaters in other cities are used by multiple groups. There are no reason this space couldn't be shared. The copy of the email was just to show the Retaliatory mentality of the current administration.

The problem that can arise is when ownership rights are exercised over PUBLIC property. The two instances that come to mind quickly are Vancheries restaurant who treat the parking in front of the diner as theirs when in fact it is city property, open to all and the hospital who declare the public sidewalk a smoke free zone when their authority stops at the front door.

Keep the fence stop the political posturing! This whole scenario is absurd!

"Save the Fence"

I saw this "fence" for the first today while walking around town. I thought it was really pretty and nice~

Seems to me that there is a simple resolution to this issue that could also deal with the precedent problem.

1) the zoning committee should meet and actually make a decision on whether they will allow the fence or not. Focus on the zoning aspects, fairness and prior precedent. Ignore the fact that the fence was built without the proper authorizations - for now.
2) if the zoning committee says NO to the fence then it should be removed at the owners expense within 4 weeks.
3) if the zoning committee says YES to the fence then the owner should be fined for having improperly installed the fence, but be allowed to keep the fence as approved by the zoning committee. If the owner does not wish to pay the fine then they have 4 weeks to remove the fence at their cost.

Seems that the emotion needs to be removed from this issue so that people can do what is right and reasonable for the town and the citizens.

Alan Snyder

If (only) the zoning laws were enforced equally this would not be an issue.

Why does the city allow the illegal business signage on Otsego Street.

Doesnt anyone come out to check to see if improvements to properties are being met. The fence should be left as is since it does provide a nice border to the house. The owner has taken quite a bit of money and time to make exterior improvements. Yes, he should have pursued being recognized in wanting additonal fencing, however, if no one checks during the completion of the construction to adhere to the codes, then accountablity in the zoning officer is at fault. Keep the fence up. There are more importrant things to worry about in the town of Havre de Grace. This is as ridiculous as moving the Duck Drop to downtown.

Save the fence. It's a betterment of the community. Shelve the bad politics.

Seems like everyone likes the fence and the only problem is with the "precedent" that it would set to allow it to stand when it was not first approved using the appropriate permitting process. So the city can say it is allowed to remain, but charge a fine to make the point that it is not OK to do first and ask forgiveness later. Problem solved and move on to more important things!

Lets recoop the money that was "given" or should I say "not charged" to a certain local builder in free water and sewer hook ups in the area between Wilson Street and Bloomsbury. That will surley help pay for an extra inspector, or maybe use it as an incentive to get the ones they have to do their jobs. Perhaps the part time help at the yacht basin can help inspect since they dont take care of the piers. And by the way the corner of Union and Commerce looks alot better then the corner of Wilson and Seneca or Seneca and Bloomsbury. SAVE THE FENCE

Downtown Hdg needs all of the help it can get to look better. I do believe he should have gotten a permit with a waiver. But for heavens sake let this guy keep his fence. This smells of backroom politics which does not benefit the city or its citizens.

let the fence stay

I thought the fence added to the beautiful property that I see the owners daily maintain. So sorry that the city is relaxed on some issues and overly strict on others, not much of a balance. Over 10 years ago I wanted to put a fence up to keep trespassers out and to add to the charm of the property, and I wasn't allowed to. Can we please focus on the crime and drug issues in the city, then maybe no one will request fencing in this town.

Well seeing what this man has done for his property and what a wonderful looking fence he has put up, I just wish the City would do more about other properties which are not in as good of shape as his fence. If that fence was disturbing a real right way and causing a problem for the public to get around and the City was going to do the cutting and trimming of the grass, hedge, and trees this may be a real problem. And the problem would be that corner wouldn’t look as good as it does now, because you would hear that the City doesn’t have the money or the time to take care of it.

While I am voicing my thoughts, it sure is funny that the city curbs seem to get painted on the parade route and the rest just don’t get done. They look very nice and so should the rest of the city. . If the council would take time say helping do painting and not worrying about a fence which hasn’t done anything to harm the public except to have a to lesson about some crap being stirred up and give something for the papers to right about.

Well then take down the fence and let the City do the work in taking care of all of their right ways in the city, we know that will never happen.

Talk about political posturing. A story or thread about the Mayor or current council just wouldn't be the same without the cry baby losers Cullum, Duncan and Miller. Haven't you 3 seen what this will get you in the long run. Thats right, voted out or not in. People get sick an tired of you three stirring it up all the time. Fortunately (as the past 2 elections have shown), the only people who care to fall for your antics are your cronnies. The good Havre de Gracian wants to do whats right and thats to abide by the law, take the fence down and move onto more important things.

SAVE THE FENCE

The fence is a work of art, for gosh sakes. I see what’s going on here. Good ‘ol boy, local politics. You have to be bought and paid for to want to tear it down. David Glenn and John Correri should be ashamed of themselves. How much is the political machine paying you for your re-election bids… not enough. “Save the City”, from idiots like you. You morons! You don’t appreciate good citizens. Continue down this path, and Havre de Grace will be inhabited by lower income families that will add nothing to your fine, but dieing city.

Sincerely,
A tourist, for now

After attending the council meeting of 18 June and hearing the tie vote and subsequent denying of the Fiocchi Family fence, I decided to express my feelings when provided the opportunity to talk during “citizens comments”. My response herein is driven from additional information available through other citizen comments and this article by Sean Walsh. Here are the conclusions reached:

A. If the fence license had come up for vote during the normal time frame, it would have passed with Fred Cullum, Barbara Wagner, and Jim Miller voting “yes.”

B. The fence item to be included on the council agenda did not come up until after the election at which time Fred Cullum and Jim Miller were replaced by Joseph Smith and Dave Glen. Here one yes vote is lost allowing a tie and thus fence denial.

C. Why is this happening? It appears there is some underlying orchestration. I think former councilman Jim Miller described it well when he wrote
“V for VENDETTA”.

The city council should reassess the situation that includes both the recommendations of the planning committee and positive support of the citizens of Havre de Grace. If city council desires to represent its citizens then a revote and approval of this fence should be forthcoming.

John Vanderhoff

I believe Mr. Vanderhoff, has hit the nail squarely on the head.

Thank you to eveyone who posted a comment either pro or con. This could be the first step to stop favoritism in Havre de Grace. The fence is only 24' of wood,what is at stake is our right to be treated on an equal basis. With ALL citizens being treated without malice, even if they ask questions that offend our city fathers. Joe Fiocchi

Leave the Fence and Fix my Curb, please

Lord, I know HDG city workers have something else to do leave the fence and leave the man alone, you act like he was committing a crime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trim some od these trees back from the wires.

Leave the fence alone. What the City of Havre de Grace needs to start doing, hiring crews to go out and cut-plow-clean up all of those right of ways they claim to be protecting. Since the care of these areas are done 99% by the homeowners whose property it borders, consideration should be given. And since the council believes this section of fence should come down, first compensate EVERY homeowner in town the sum of $1,000 per year for the care of CITY RIGHT OF WAY. Second, and better yet, let's get a council in there who aren't a bunch of third graders.

Sounds like the precedent is that fences and other things have been constructed and HdG didn't do anything. So let the nice fence stand.

What City Council needs to do for the betterment and safety of its citizens is put up a STOP sign at the intersection (Union & Commerce). It's CRAZY that there is no stop sign with the park and kids and pedestrians. Let go of the fence and get going with the STOP sign. Plus, when you stop, it will give you a chance to look at and appreciate the nice fence! :)

City Council should thank Mr. Fiocchi for such a classy looking fence and for the improvements to his property. Mr. Tarbert hit the nail on the head.......I've tried to get zoning to come on down the same street (as Mr. Fiocchi's residence) to look at a mess in a driveway and back yard. Clearly they don't look, close their eyes or are doing someone else a favor. The city needs to focus on PROBLEM AREAS not the problem solvers.

John Vanderhoff states "If the fence license had come up for vote during the normal time frame, it would have passed with Fred Cullum, Barbara Wagner, and Jim Miller voting “yes.”"

So let me understand, The two Councilmen that the Citizens of Havre de Grace voted out of office would have voted to ignore the law. Seems like the Citizens made the correct choice in May. Sure hope they do the same next May and get rid of the third.

By the way, does anyone know why Barbara Wagner left City Hall before completing her sworn duties last night. Why did she not participate in the closed session? Why did she choose not to do her job?

Perhaps she had her feelings hurt when her close personal friend and business associate, Mr. Fiocchi had to stand up and publicly appoligize for not telling the truth. Her relationship with Mr. Fiocchi was displayed in the parade when her business and Mr. Fiocchi were combined on a float. Is it honest for a Councilwoman to vote on a matter involving a person whom she has a business relationship with??

Mr. Fiocchi,
Your car is indeed a classic and added a great deal to the parade.

You state above the Councilwoman Wagner's business sponsored the car in the parade. And that she did not pay a cent for the advertisement that you provided. There is very little advertisement offered that is not paid for in some manner.

Indeed that is my point. Perhaps she paid with the speech she gave at Council and with the vote she made. Perhaps she did not. I believe Councilwoman Wagner to be an honest person. However, when on Council it is best to avoid any possible question of impropriety.

I am commenting, not on the fence but on Jim Miller's comment concerning other groups not using the Old opera House. I am not an elected official. I do advise Parks and Recreation programs as to various considerations when holding public programs. The local Recreation Committee practices "inclusion" and as such adhrese to ADA regulations which means that programs must be conducted in "accessible facilities". The Opera House is not and therefore rec programs and activities are not held there. No conspiracy is involved, just a philosophy of service to as many people as possible with consideration of those with disabilities.

I know this wont get posted because its against your cronies Sean, awhile back i posted a reply about your "friend" who at that time was on the council it was not allowed, last week i posted just a comment about you bringing up a " lifestyle " which again wan't posted, but when your friends slam the Mayor, whom i've never met, LET It RIDE this is why this country doesnt believe in newspapers no more PREJUDICE!!

For those of you who haven't seen it yet, here's the recap from last night's meeting which was posted this morning, including some updates to the story above: http://havredegrace.patch.com/articles/city-council-wall-stands-fence-comes-down

Sean

Comments on this article have been closed. Please see the updated story here:

http://havredegrace.patch.com/articles/city-council-wall-stands-fence-comes-down

Thanks,
Sean